All people are ‘fundamentally good,’ Pope Francis tells CBS interviewer, stirring theological debate

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Pope Francis declared in an interview broadcast on Monday that every person on earth is “fundamentally good,” a teaching in line with Catholic doctrine but also sure to ruffle feathers in other churches.

“People want to live. People forge ahead. And people are fundamentally good,” the 87-year-old pontiff told CBS News anchor Norah O’Donnell in the full version of the interview, which was released Monday night after parts had been broadcast on “60 Minutes” the previous day.

“We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues and sinners, but the heart itself is good,” he said.

That statement aligns with the “Catechism of the Catholic Church,” which states in Paragraph 405 that “although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted.”

Responding to a different question — about the “openness” Francis is said to practice in the church — the pope did acknowledge the universality of sin, but said this is exactly why the Catholic Church cannot be an exclusionary club, but must be a universal body open to all.

“You have to be open to everything. You have to. Everyone, everyone, everyone,” Francis said, according to a CBS News transcript of the interview. “‘That so-and-so is a sinner?’ Me too, I am a sinner. Everyone! ‘That here is someone with a diverse sexual gender?’ Everyone! Everyone in! Everyone. And once inside, we’ll figure out how to sort it all out. But everyone. Do not forget that. The Gospel is for everyone.”

But that would still be too sunny a view of human nature for some other Christians.

Protestants and others will point out Scripture passages such as “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9) and the New Testament declaration that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), and say that Francis has it wrong.

According to Catholic theologian and author Dawn Eden Goldstein, the pope is right about man’s fundamental goodness.

“For the Catholic, unlike the Calvinist, sin does not make the human soul totally depraved and repulsive in God’s eyes,” she said via email. “God can still see the fundamental goodness of his image even in the most evil sinner. He saw such fundamental goodness when, in his love, He sent his Son to redeem us when we were yet sinners.”

The pontiff also issued a blunt “No” when Ms. O’Donnell asked whether a Catholic girl growing up now would ever have the chance to “participate as a clergy member” in the Catholic Church.

Asked if women could serve at all in the diaconate, Francis was equally discouraging.

“If it is deacons with Holy Orders, no. But women have always had, I would say, the function of deaconesses without being deacons, right? Women are of great service as women, not as ministers, as ministers in this regard, within the Holy Orders.”

Under questioning from Ms. O’Donnell, the pope said that while surrogate motherhood “could” be an option for women who’ve survived cancer, there were other alternatives.

“The other hope is adoption,” Francis said. “I would say that in each case the situation should be carefully and clearly considered, consulting medically and then morally, as well. I think there is a general rule in these cases, but you have to go into each case in particular to assess the situation, as long as the moral principle is not skirted.”

As reported earlier by The Washington Times and other media outlets, the pope remonstrated Ms. O’Donnell when she said the Vatican had permitted its priests “to bless same-sex couples.”

He said priests cannot bless a same-sex union but never have been prohibited from blessing the people in it.

“That cannot be done because … that is not the sacrament. I cannot. The Lord made it that way,” he said. “But to bless each person, yes. The blessing is for everyone. For everyone.”

Despite several health scares over the past year, the pope told Ms. O’Donnell he is not eyeing a retirement and becoming a “pope emeritus” as his predecessor Benedict XVI did, though no previous pope had.

“It has never occurred to me. Maybe if the day comes when my health can go no further. Perhaps because the only infirmity I have is in my knee, and that is getting much better. But it never occurred to me,” the Argentine-born pope said.

Francis said he “never really thought” about what his legacy as pontiff would be, telling Ms. O’Donnell that it would not be a specific thing or event.

“The Church is the legacy,” he said. “The Church not only through the Pope, but through you, through every Christian, through everyone. Personally, I get on the bandwagon of the Church and its legacy for all.”